F1technical.net

PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑

09 Apr 2021, 07:27

Andi76 wrote: ↑

03 Feb 2021, 20:29

Made popular by Mercedes? Thats a joke isn't it? The Pushrod to Upright concept was introduced first by John Barnard and Ferrari in 1994 or 1995. Rory Byrne was the first designer in Formula 1 who really made this concept work and used it continously. 20 years ago!!! The highly sucessfull Ferraris from 2000(introduced during the season)-2004 all used that concept, as did most of their succesors. Honda copied it, as many other teams in the early 00's. So - it wasn't Mercedes who made that concept popular! It was Rory Byrne and Ferrari 20 years ago and it is a well known concept since that time!

Lets see some photos to see how different it was and why Ferrari abandonned it.

There are drawings in Piolas Technical Analysis 2000. I can make a picture, but to be honest i do not know how to post a pic from my handy here.

I remember the early 00's when this concept was introduced at the front by Rory Byrne from Ferrari and Malcolm Oastler from BAR. All four drivers reported a much better feedback and feeling from the steering.

I searched some photos and models of the cars and I scratched off 1994 and 1995 Ferraris.
I scratch off year 2000 too.

PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑

23 Feb 2022, 19:26

I searched some photos and models of the cars and I scratched off 1994 and 1995 Ferraris.
I scratch off year 2000 too.

If you haven't found what you're looking for, you haven't looked properly. Here is Piola's picture of the F1-2000 where Rory Byrne introduced the pushrod to upright concept.



Ferrari then used this concept ever since, i think (and never abandoned it) and many other teams copied it, in fact almost all of them in the 2000s. It is also mentioned in Honda's R&D book about their era until 2008. BAR was the first to introduce it in 1999. Here Piolas Drawing of the BAR solution:



Here the site from Hondas RD Book of their third era (untill 2008) on this matter:



Here the complete pages from Piolas book so one can see that its the F1-2000 and the 1999 BAR:





I'll save myself the trouble of looking at pictures of John Barnard's 1994 Ferrari, who used the same concept on this car but, unlike Rory Byrne, didn't get it right (he did not get in the axis, what caused problems) .

So it was more than ridiculous that this concept was hyped so much a few years ago regarding Mercedes, because it had already been successfully introduced in F1 almost 20 years earlier and was then used
by almost the entire field in the 2000s. But this is nothing new and is repeated all the time. For example, Newey's blown diffuser was hyped in 2010 even though it was a 26-year-old concept and the solution was practically a copy of the exhaust solution originally planned for the F300 (which was unfortunately not possible due to the heat protection technology and carbons not being developed far enough at the time and therefore the suspension cooked, which then led to the periscope exhaust) or the hype of 2022 and 2023 around Red Bull's "revolutionary" anti-dive suspension, which has been used for decades...

Sorry, just realised i uploaded the wrong Image regarding Rory Byrnes solution of Monaco 2000 - here is the right one with the right solution on the top, the old version below.

Good find.

The kinematics of it, is to put it on or as close to the king pin axis for the least "bump steer" effect.

PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑

28 Feb 2024, 02:54

Good find.

The kinematics of it, is to put it on or as close to the king pin axis for the least "bump steer" effect.

Is that known as "bump steer" ?

My understanding of that description classically denotes the steering rack ends proscribing a difference in arc to the one in which the upright is notionally completing.

Hence the steered wheels accumulate more toe in or out as the suspension travels from full droop to full bump. The chassis effectively giving directional shift with the wheel held still throughout that compression event.

Mounting the push-rod at a difference to upright axis SHOULD give rise or drop to suspension height through turning the steering, but not alter toe etc.
Castor and akerman would then be in their purest implementation to alter those effects without being "poluted" by an unquantified overlay and amount of pure "bump" steer.

Andi76 wrote: ↑

30 Dec 2023, 20:21

shortened

What books are these and how do I get them?

SiLo wrote: ↑

28 Feb 2024, 12:06

Andi76 wrote: ↑

30 Dec 2023, 20:21

shortened

What books are these and how do I get them?

Piolas Books - Technical Analysis. But these are now rarities and for the books from 1998-2005 in particular you sometimes have to pay up to 200 dollars for one of them. 1999, 2003 and 2004 are extremely expensive. After 2006 it gets a little cheaper, around 80-150 dollars up to the years 2011/2012. Are occasionally offered on EBay and Amazon. I recommend EBay, it's usually cheaper there and you can get a bargain! These old books are now almost an investment! I have bought all the books since 1994 (1994-1997 are only available in Italian and are no longer available anywhere - worth about 500 euros per book) and my collection is worth over 5000 euros!

Andi76 wrote: ↑

28 Feb 2024, 12:46

SiLo wrote: ↑

28 Feb 2024, 12:06

Andi76 wrote: ↑

30 Dec 2023, 20:21

shortened

What books are these and how do I get them?

Piolas Books - Technical Analysis. But these are now rarities and for the books from 1998-2005 in particular you sometimes have to pay up to 200 dollars for one of them. 1999, 2003 and 2004 are extremely expensive. After 2006 it gets a little cheaper, around 80-150 dollars up to the years 2011/2012. Are occasionally offered on EBay and Amazon. I recommend EBay, it's usually cheaper there and you can get a bargain! These old books are now almost an investment! I have bought all the books since 1994 (1994-1997 are only available in Italian and are no longer available anywhere - worth about 500 euros per book) and my collection is worth over 5000 euros!

Incredible! Now it's time to do the forum a service and scan them all

SiLo wrote: ↑

28 Feb 2024, 12:57

Andi76 wrote: ↑

28 Feb 2024, 12:46

SiLo wrote: ↑

28 Feb 2024, 12:06

What books are these and how do I get them?

Piolas Books - Technical Analysis. But these are now rarities and for the books from 1998-2005 in particular you sometimes have to pay up to 200 dollars for one of them. 1999, 2003 and 2004 are extremely expensive. After 2006 it gets a little cheaper, around 80-150 dollars up to the years 2011/2012. Are occasionally offered on EBay and Amazon. I recommend EBay, it's usually cheaper there and you can get a bargain! These old books are now almost an investment! I have bought all the books since 1994 (1994-1997 are only available in Italian and are no longer available anywhere - worth about 500 euros per book) and my collection is worth over 5000 euros!

Incredible! Now it's time to do the forum a service and scan them all

There are only about 3500 pages

Andi76 wrote: ↑

28 Feb 2024, 15:35

SiLo wrote: ↑

28 Feb 2024, 12:57

Andi76 wrote: ↑

28 Feb 2024, 12:46

Piolas Books - Technical Analysis. But these are now rarities and for the books from 1998-2005 in particular you sometimes have to pay up to 200 dollars for one of them. 1999, 2003 and 2004 are extremely expensive. After 2006 it gets a little cheaper, around 80-150 dollars up to the years 2011/2012. Are occasionally offered on EBay and Amazon. I recommend EBay, it's usually cheaper there and you can get a bargain! These old books are now almost an investment! I have bought all the books since 1994 (1994-1997 are only available in Italian and are no longer available anywhere - worth about 500 euros per book) and my collection is worth over 5000 euros!

Incredible! Now it's time to do the forum a service and scan them all

There are only about 3500 pages

If you start now you can be done by the European leg!

The 3 books "Prepare to win, Engineer to win & Tune to win" all authored by Caroll Smith are a very good foundation in car design overall.

They preceed many in their approach to this topic, not with current cars, but many historical interest items ftom that author.

Farnborough wrote: ↑

28 Feb 2024, 11:36

PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑

28 Feb 2024, 02:54

Good find.

The kinematics of it, is to put it on or as close to the king pin axis for the least "bump steer" effect.

Is that known as "bump steer" ?

My understanding of that description classically denotes the steering rack ends proscribing a difference in arc to the one in which the upright is notionally completing.

Hence the steered wheels accumulate more toe in or out as the suspension travels from full droop to full bump. The chassis effectively giving directional shift with the wheel held still throughout that compression event.

Mounting the push-rod at a difference to upright axis SHOULD give rise or drop to suspension height through turning the steering, but not alter toe etc.
Castor and akerman would then be in their purest implementation to alter those effects without being "poluted" by an unquantified overlay and amount of pure "bump" steer.

It will have on effect on the steering becuase it produces a torque around the kin pin axis if it is offset to the axis. The driver will feel it in the steering. In Formula 1 the travel is not great, so that maybe whey they can get away with the amount of steering this push rod on upright can induce if it's off-axis.

SiLo wrote: ↑

28 Feb 2024, 12:57

Andi76 wrote: ↑

28 Feb 2024, 12:46

SiLo wrote: ↑

28 Feb 2024, 12:06

What books are these and how do I get them?

Piolas Books - Technical Analysis. But these are now rarities and for the books from 1998-2005 in particular you sometimes have to pay up to 200 dollars for one of them. 1999, 2003 and 2004 are extremely expensive. After 2006 it gets a little cheaper, around 80-150 dollars up to the years 2011/2012. Are occasionally offered on EBay and Amazon. I recommend EBay, it's usually cheaper there and you can get a bargain! These old books are now almost an investment! I have bought all the books since 1994 (1994-1997 are only available in Italian and are no longer available anywhere - worth about 500 euros per book) and my collection is worth over 5000 euros!

Incredible! Now it's time to do the forum a service and scan them all

Do the forum a service by stealing the authors' published works? Buy the book(s). I did years ago. What you ask is actually a crime.....