Thanks for the responses. I'm glad I posted here, because what I've learned from you guys has changed my perspective on the issue. I'm definitely exaggerating the problem, although I reserve some judgment until we see what happens with resurfacing at COTA, and how the 2022 cars perform next year.
rscsr wrote: ↑27 Oct 2021, 10:53
Imho they aren't a big problem. It's just something that sets the track apart a bit. If the teams need to change their suspension then so be it...Then they should build a more suitable car imho.
Thanks for your thoughts. I'm starting to see that I've probably exaggerated the issue. Still, to the point of "a more suitable car," my sense is that bumps like COTA's are
so large that a suitable car starts to hit the upper-limit of the car formula. Like, they haven't got many options for adjustments before they're exceeding the technical regs.
TimW wrote: ↑27 Oct 2021, 12:13
Unless bumps arise that can really launch a car, like we saw with sausage curbs in the past, or they are in a dangerous high speed corner without runoff, I do not see much of an issue. [...]
The only real issue I see is the health of the drivers, their backs and brains need to survive. Maybe they should mandate an accelerometer in their seats and put limits on that (which would force teams to adjust suspension)
You make a good point in this, that they're not quite as bad as sausage curbs, and there is plenty of runoff. But it's not the available runoff that concerns me as much as it can lead to multi-car accidents. And I'm all-in for driver safety, but I've only ever heard that the bumps are tiring and stressful, not that they're causing major strains and things like concussions.
Sieper wrote: ↑27 Oct 2021, 13:10
Good post and always nice to see someone join! It is hard for me to judge how big of an problem it is. But I will say this, I enormously enjoyed those super slow-mo shots we got all weekend long of that one corner where the cars were all on the limit, tires twisting, cars heaving. Great footage.
Thanks! Yeah, I loved seeing the cars twist and flex, with the legality planks slamming into the asphalt. So cool to see how the forces are distributed, and how that shows up in the cars' torquing around.
El Scorchio wrote: ↑27 Oct 2021, 13:26
Only the Alpines and Gasly didn't finish the race, so perhaps there was a weakness in the Alpine car that the track revealed, (so if their cars aren't well equipped enough to survive a track then it's on them rather than the track) [...]ultimately it's on the teams trading off strength for speed. The could absolutely build a car to easily survive any track but it wouldn't be as fast. All about risk management.
For 2022, the teams need to make sure they engineer the cars and components well enough to take what all the tracks throw at them, including COTA.
Yeah, the "trade-off" factor is part of my argument, that perhaps too much trade-off needs to be made. But I take your points.
Scorpaguy wrote: ↑27 Oct 2021, 20:27
Is the track bumpy...yes.
Do F1 teams have good engineers...yes.
Are F1 drivers supposed to be top tier...yes.
When one stands trackside at COTA...it looks glass smooth....at 200KPH+ the bumps become quite evident. The bumps exist because of underlying lenses of clay in the subsoil causing heave and subsidence. COTA's strategy is to shave the areas of "heave". However, the areas of the track affected by this are not consistent; a "heave" today may be a "subsidence" tomorrow - or- an unaffected area of the track today may succumb to clay woes tomorrow. Some drivers like Ham decry the circuit as too dangerous to race upon. Others like Ric proclaim the bumps to be no more than "character".
I think we should remember that all tracks have issues...Monaco's many faults make passing nearly impossible, many circuits have ambient temps that keep some cars from running at their peak aero-wise, many circuits are sand-strewn, many circuits become lakes with just a pit of precip, Spa's Eau Rouge can be driven at speed only by those with size XL genitalia, etc. Furthermore, circuits used to incorporate elements such as off-camber turns, blind crests, pinch apexes, etc. (all of which could be characterized as "dangerous" if not properly driven). IMHO, a few bumps that seem to be manageable (for which they seem to be for all of F1) may be a good thing. Moto GP, now that is a different story.
I certainly understand that F1 has top-tier talent - both engineers and drivers - and that their design+manufacturing is more than capable of building cars suitable for all circuits in the season, and one-off cars for the outliers. But, as above, my sense is that we're maybe approaching the edge of the design envelope, especially when considering the nature of COTA's bumps. Yes, absolutely, most tracks have issues, and we often love the way those issues lend to the track's respective character, but I do feel like the frequency and amplitude of COTA's bumps are pretty extreme relative to the cars' design/the formula. But points well taken.
Per the subsidence at COTA, yep, I have dug-into the issue (no pun intended), and I understand the causes, and the mitigations that COTA has implemented (or abandoned, like the drainage). I remember when they first turned shovels at the site, and the discussion was that it was a good location, but a sub-optimal one for many reasons, including the subsidence issue. I also remember, in 2012 standing with tickets in hand, two months before the race, praying that the FIA inspection would succeed... and then, praying that Tavo Hellmund would actually finish the facility in time for the race. Dude pulled it off, but it seemed like only just.
Edax wrote: ↑27 Oct 2021, 20:34
But I think COTA is a bit too much. The problem is not the severity of the isolated bumps, but that they seem to form in resonance structures. I don’t think getting over them fast is a sign of skill, more of car characteristics and a bit of luck. So if something is a risk for the drivers / cars and not a promotor of driving skill, it probably doesn’t belong on a track.
Yes, this is at the crux of my argument: that COTA's bumps are uniquely bad/dangerous, because of the nature of the bumps themselves, and the cars' overall design formula. It's how big the bumps are, combined with the rate they hit the cars at speed, and then, the sheer number of them. The "resonance structures" are absolutely something I was looking for, wondering if one car would have the a natural frequency align and hit a bad harmonic and *really* get crossed-up. In the end, I determined that the cars would only hit that harmonic if they were going much, much faster... but then I started thinking about the 2022 cars' length and tire sidewalls, so the question remains open (perhaps). And haha on digging potholes in Montreal. Does it need any more character than it already has
?
Thanks, all, for your perspective!